In light of the Willow Creek research and Reveal publication, you may find this book, “Jim And Casper Go To Church”, as interesting as I did. In Proverbs, Solomon taught, “In a multitude of counselors is safety”. But should we seek the council of an atheist? Paul was quite aware of what the poets and philosophers of the day thought at Mars Hill. And so it would seem wise to know how they think in this new digital age in order to not only engage and attract those far from God, but help them transform their lives as well.
“Jim and Casper Go to Church” tells of the adventure of Jim Henderson and Matt Casper. Jim Henderson has been a large church pastor and is the director of a ministry called Off-the-Map, which stimulates spiritual discussions among people from all corners of the faith universe. In this book, Jim interacts with an atheist he hired to take a nationwide road trip in visiting a dozen of America’s churches, including some well-known (such as Saddleback, Willow Creek and Lakewood) and some little-known. Jim wanted to document the “first impressions” of a non-believer at those places.
Matt Casper, a marketing executive, is no stranger to the Christian world having worked for one of the leading Christian outreach ministries. It sure seems odd to me that he was a professed atheist even then. With an open mind, Matt entered each of the churches and agreed to describe his experience, akin to being a foreigner entering places unknown. His insightful reactions within each church may provoke your mind and challenge some of your assumptions (as it did mine) about what we do and why we do it.
Following are several questions Matt asked as he walked back to the parking lot after visits:
- Why did someone come up and talk with us in only two of the ten churches after the flurry of “unusually happy” greeters?
- Is the church more interested in conversation or conversion? Why are there no real calls to action in these sermons? As Christians are you to do anything?
- Why aren’t more real life examples of “living out one’s faith” incorporated into the service? It just isn’t clear what this Christian life is really about.
- How honest are Christian leaders about the cost of following Christ? Can they really deliver on all those inferred promises before the collections?
- Is this a body of believers who are more interested in serving or in being served?
- Is the church engaging people or performing for them?
The “greet-sing-preach-collect-present” form played out in every church visited. Along with it, Matt saw it all: light shows, fog machines, worship bands, etc. At one point, his incredulity broke through, as he asked,
“Is this what Jesus told you guys to do?”.
Ed,
I believe these dudes are going to be at the Catalyst Conference this fall. This reminds me of a conversation I recently overheard as my wife describe our individual journeys. She grew up ‘in’ church and I grew up ‘far from it’. I heard her say to a group of ladies at our house, “I knew the church and then met God, then he gave me Michael. Michael met God one day, then got introduced to the church.” A few of the women resonded ‘oh, that explains a lot’ and busted out laughing, so I stepped around the corner and yep, it were the one’s who knew me.
The comment my wife made really sums so much up in just a few short words. Each time we are together around ‘christians’ and / or ‘church’ it’s kind of like the journeys of Jim and Casper.
Ed that sounds like an important book to read. I’m sure I will, soon. Have you read it all, yet? I’m wondering if you thought of one or two concrete changes in course necessary after reading it.
The title of your blog and their question, is of course convicting. It would be so much simpler if Jesus actually did tell us exactly what to do – in this day, and this place, and this age.
Marla,
Great question! Yes I did read it all. And yes it’s convicting. The post only captured a small bit of the insight.
You recall the “Authentage Post” a few weeks ago right?
Well, it seems one of the keys is we must be authentic, you know get real as Christians. Yes Christ said, “I come that you have life and have it in fullness.” Yet, Christianity doesn’t heal every sickness, quickly solve our marriage woes, or make us wealthy. Jesus isn’t a vending machine. Even as abundant as grace can be we can’t keep selling that vending machine story and be believable.
We can say Christ’s grace and principles offer great blessings of course. Real peace can be found when we trust someone bigger than us is in control. But the key to me after 30 years as a Christ follower is;to be great in God’s Kingdom requires we become the servant of all. It just can’t be about us, or what we get. Peace can’t be found by feeding a demanding spirit.
The other thought is we must demonstrate, by God’s abundant grace, a broken spirit and contrite heart. Real power, real grace to be humble, and pure hearted.
Even atheists are awed when we demonstrate power over our own soul cravings and selfishness. When the strong choose to become weak for the sake of others, people stop and want to know how. As James says, “They will know you are Christians by your love.”
I sense these are the kinds of “calls to action” that would have touched Matt Casper. The “calls to action” he wanted to believe, well we all want to believe, are reachable for all us common people.
So what “call to actions” do you think would have touched him?
Ed
Michael,
I really understand.
I’m like your wife. I knew the church then met God. My wife met God then met the church.
She has taught me so very much about trusting in Him. I still struggle after 30 years to trust as freely as she does.
Ed
OK, now I’ve gotta move this book up higher on the reading stack. The stack which, if you saw my post a few days ago, is already precariously perched on my bedroom coffee table and is threatening the entire ecosystem of our room.
Through some amazing books lately (unChristian and the Dan Merchant one…can’t think of the name) I have realized that it is time to come to grips with our misrepresentation of the faith.
We have presented easy salvation when salvation is costly and requires ultimate sacrifice.
We fall prey to instant prayer requests when God often asks us to wait, to work, to wonder.
We say to everyone “come and join us” when God really wants us to go, and sit with those we find.
We present Jesus as like us when he is really wholly other.
We often say we want to serve when we really want to serve only certain people.
We claim to love the sinner, but not all kinds of sinners.
We value faith…but only our own, forgetting to build bridges that can be traveled over.
I thought you were supposed to settle down and conform the older you get, but I find myself getting more radical with each passing year. Quietly, of course! Because I’m really a rules follower who has trouble playing hooky or returning a rental movie late. But radical nonetheless. Faith, for me at this point, has to transform everything or it just isn’t worth it.
Marla, I hear you. It’s time for the church to “keep it real”.
Ed,
Casper knows something that most Christians don’t. That is, Jesus came to reverse everything that satan distorted in the earth and Jesus operated as an example for us to do the same. He basically said “what i can do, you can do”(John 14:12).
The head (Jesus) still expects it to be done. The body (the church) is still looking for someone else to do it. The world (Casper) is waiting on the Christians to show what God (Father) can do through His children.
Casper knows that from the beginning, we were given the domain and authority over this whole earth. Man gave it up, but Jesus reversed that and got it back. (Romans 5:19)
The problem is, the church is like the grocery store owner’s children, sitting in the middle of the store starving.
Casper is letting Christians know that the world is waiting for Christians to stop playing Church, and get down to the Kingdoms business at hand.
Lets be the salt and the light. Penetrate, take over and change wherever we are, for the Kingdom of God.
This will answer Casper’s question.
I too loved this book. It makes you laugh and cry (or at least I felt like crying) over the ridiculous things we do. If you haven’t heard Henderson before he spoke about the book experience at a conference in Tucson last year and the audios can be found here:
http://www.missionalx.org/audio
Hey Tyrone…great thoughts. You have a way of cutting away the chaff and getting to the issue. Good stuff…
Brad…thanks for your comments. I really enjoyed your site. I”ll be talking about missional ministry in the near future. Maybe we can do a joint post or two…interested?
Ed
This conversation is right-on. Thanks for reading and writing about our book. Something I have been thinking about lately is why is it so easy for me to talk with so many Christians…?
And I realized something: we all want to make the world a better place. We share that value, and, IMO, shared values are far more important than shared beliefs…
Thanks again for your kind words…
Matt Casper
Matt,
Thanks for stopping by and commenting. And thanks for your candid insight.
So many times we fail to see our blind spots and communicate values and beliefs we don’t intend to. You’ve been so very helpful in helping us see some of those.
I’m pondering your shared values and shared beliefs comment. I agree we both value making the world a better place. We can’t love others without striving to do that.
However, I’m not sure I can consistently love others without a belief in something far beyond me. A cause that is far beyond this short life. So even though we may hold this shared value, and that is good and affirming, I question if mankind can consistently act on shared values without an eternal belief system that provokes us beyond ourselves.
That being said, for me the story of Christ makes the most sense of all belief systems I’ve had the opportunity to understand. Christs example compels us to reach beyond ourselves. Maybe that’s why so many talk to you. In their effort to be Christ like they love all people, even those who see it different. That is what we are called to do.
Unfortunately, we Christians do such a poor job of living out our beliefs and values we’ve eroded our trust and in turn our influence in culture. As you wondered, where is the power to get beyond ourselves. That’s a question many of us are asking and it’s provoking us to dig deeper to understand. Hence this blog and reading your book!
Thanks again Matt. I appreciate you.
Ed