It’s been a thought provoking discussion regarding the post, “Does Jesus make us rich and throw in heaven to boot?
Comments from Don Pelon and Tyrone B are quite diverse. We need your help to make some sense of it:
Tyrone B - June 26
Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For with the measure you deal out, it will be measured back to you.
There are example after example showing that God does not have a problem with people being rich. It’s a heart issue.
Don Pelon - June 26
“Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith ….”
When John the Baptist teaches that, “He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.”, do you think we get a sense of the church’s calling?
Tyrone B - June 27
I agree…That is why it’s a heart issue. Money just magnifies what’s already in the heart.
You need to have more than enough to give some away and bless someone. We as Christians need to go after and believe God for an abundance, so we can give in abundance. And not be afraid of the critics.
Don Pelon - June 28
I wonder, though, if Christians who “go after” God for abundance shouldn’t be looking for the infinitely deeper abundance of spiritual and count the riches of this world as dung. Clearly - from the Gospels, to Timothy, to James, riches were viewed as a hindrance at a minimum.
Recently the Market Based Management Institute (MBMI) reported American’s gave a record $306 Billion in 2007. MBMI suggests charity is likely driven by supply, or abundance as Tyrone commented. If we don’t have two coats, we can’t give one. Don argues greater wealth brings diminished desire for truth and riches are viewed as a hindrance, at a minimum, throughout the Gospels.
As a youth I was challenged to:
- Make all I can (Proverbs- See a man diligent in his work, he’ll stand before kings-so do we work for ten coats?)
- Save all I can (be a wise steward…its not about us)
- Give all I can (James 4-To know to do good and not do it is sin-does this mean we give nine coats away if we have ten?)
I also was challenged with this philosophy, “With frugality, few will be poor and few will become very rich.”
So where is truth? Can we be rich and deeply spiritual too? And what is rich? Is it two coats, three, or ten? And, if we have ten are we to give nine, five or three? And what does all this mean for us Americans who, by the world’s standards, are quite rich?
So how do you sort through an issue that seems to be at the core of our theology, our national politics, as well as global politics and conflicts?
hey dad…this topic is a little over my head but I had a question. When the Jews were building their first tabernacle, I remember reading that God actually place “wisdom” and talent in people to accomplish the task and his purposes for the place of worship. Could there be a purpose and will that God is accomplishing through all people, Christian or non-christian that we can’t really ever understand fully. He stopped the building of the tower of babel pretty easily when he willed it right? Could he desire the conditions in India to bring people to faith in Him? All just questions…please don’t assume I’m giving advice or direct assumptions. =o)
Ann
Ed, you and Ann ask some great questions.
I love your thought challenge that you had as a youth. I think we all should be thinking likwise. AActually Don and i are not that far apart in our thinking or philosophy.
If we have it in our hearts to truly give all that we can, wouldn’t we automatiacally want top make as much as we can, so we can give it away and bless others. We are blessed to be a blessing to others. We save all we can to then give in a bigger amount where God leads us to give. That’s why the rich young ruler went away grieved when Jesus asked him to give. Jesus was basically showing him not to trust in the riches. Jesus wasn’t trying to get something from him. He was actually trying to show the ruler how he get even more if the ruler would give what he had away to bless others.
Mathew 19:29 explains that he would have recieve a hundredfold and eternal life if he would just switch what he trusted in. God instead of the money.
What is rich? is a good question.
It’s all relative to the parties that you are talking about. A person that has $20 million in the bank, would be considered poor to a Warren Buffet or Bill Gates. Americas poor is considered wealthy to people in Haiti or Bangladesh.
I think this boils down to our own image of Jesus. Jesus was not poor and the Bible can prove it.
Ann,
Interesting question. If we believe God is sovereign there would seem to be some validity to your thought that it is all orchestrated for a divine purpose.
Yet, we know we do have free choice so our decisions do have an impact. They matter for individuals, for families, and for countries. Our choices matter. Of course we could be getting into discussions here about predestination and the like but that isn’t the purpose of this blog.
Thanks for making my day by sharing your thoughts
Tyrone,
Thanks for your follow up. I would agree you and Don aren’t that far apart. The gap, as I perceived it,was in the “pursue God for abundance” idea and abundance becoming the focus instead of a blessing and responsibility.
I appreciate your thoughts as well…thanks so much
I realize this is a late comment, but I’ve been busy working …..
which brings me to just one more thought. In the absence of a greater purpose, clearly we are to work, provide for our own, have so that we can give to others. The question is always about choice. When the greater purpose knocks at the door - do we stop what we’re doing and answer - without hesitation? If a greater calling comes from God, do we sell it all, give to the poor, and go? It seems to me that the decisive factor is always about what is more important - the spiritual riches, or …. anything else.
Thanks for making me think!
thanks dad. =o)
Hey Don,
I appreciate your comment about choice and the greater purpose. A thought that your comment provoked was …could the greater purpose God has for some be to lead an organization and provide resources for many and other Kingdom efforts…or simply work in their local community?
So many times the college kids I work with think their greater purpose must be something like a 10-40 window mission outreach. It just couldn’t be in their own back yard or even their own church.
God is at work everywhere it seems. Could it all be Kingdom work if our hearts passion is to glorify Him?
Ed
Sin duda. I see one Saul and one Barnabas, and many many believers living life a day at a time and being available to the Father where they are. It’s the being available - at all other costs - that can be a challenge.
I need help here Don, Sin duda?
Also, another thought, what does availability mean? For example if we are called to raise a large family we will not be as available for other missions. We have all seen the pastor’s family that lacked attention due to the pastor/father’s confused priorities about availability. The church came first and the family suffered.
Does this issue get back to the current posts here about “It’s easy to say no” and “First prioritize”? It does require a broken spirit and a contrite heart approach to discerning your gifts and Gods calling for sure. It’s easy to fool ourselves for our own benefit.
But a person could be deeply committed to God’s authentic call…and available for it…and therefor not as available for things others maybe think they should be…right?
Ed
Ed,
Sin duda basically means, “without a doubt.”
In regards to availability, I just remember what Jesus said about hating father, mother, houses, lands, children, etc. Pretty strong language. However, I do think you’re right - and sometimes we deceive ourselves about our own importance. That’s different. But when God truly says, “Do this.” … then we can’t afford to place family, friends, work, or anything else in front of Him. He will compensate for what we can’t do. The trick is to know when it is ME doing something in the name of God, and when it is GOD doing something through little-ol’-me.
I appreciated the thoughts about Jethro.
Guys, remember Matthew 19:29, Jesus told His disciples that if someone gave pu there houses, family, lands, and possessions, they will recieve a hundredfold back to them.
It’s just not in God’s M.O. to receive something without multiplying it and giving it back.
Don’s right, God will compensate for what we can’t do on our own. If we get an idea that is too big for us to do by ourselves, thats an indication that it is from God. If we can do it ourselves why do we need faith? Why would God get involved?
God already knows what we need, all He requires is for us to depend on Him to get whatever it is done.
OK Don, I’ve lost my “Sin duda” feeling here. Of course if we could clearly define when it’s God and when it’s us we’d be all set.
However, I know many many church leaders who sold out to the ministry believing God would compensate in their homes for what they had no time for. Well meaning, broken spirit, contrite heart men. You know them too. But it didn’t play out that way with many a ship wrecked kid. Somehow it isn’t as simple as we want it to be.
Weigh in here Tyrone. Real life experiences suggest it isn’t as cause and effect as we hope. I’d agree when it’s bigger than us it stretches us to trust at a different level. But a hundred fold guarantee…without a doubt?? No Sin Duda on that one.
The faith chapter in Hebrew says none of those patriarchs realized their hope in this life….none. So maybe it’s a bigger time frame…post life…that the promises are realized and therefor we don’t see the actual evidence at times. I’m not doubting the Word or promises just struggling to reconcile 50 years of observations. And if it may be another life we need to say that…no? If people realized the time frames and the potential cost of their choices in this life they may be more careful in sorting the God or me question I started this comment with.
I just believe it’s important we are able to stand behind our statements as Christians which is critical in maintaining trust.
I’m grateful for the sorting…sharpening iron stuff here.
I appreciate the iron sharpening whatever I am. I need to correct a bit of what I wrote earlier as I think further on what Jesus said. It seems He was referring to leaving all … in order to follow Him. (It does make me curious about how many of the disciples were fathers.) For those who are following Him, we have clear instruction about how we should love our wives and care for our children and be responsible members of society.
In thinking of the concept of forsaking all, I’m reminded of Dr. Bhagwat in India who - if I’m not mistaken - was forced to watch his parents starve themselves to death because of his conversion to Christ. Undoubtedly God provided “replacement” parents in his life - but they could never have truly taken the place of his real parents - but perhaps in a spiritual sense provided more and better parenting. I’ve seen that sometimes God’s replacement blessings are not the same as what we forsook, but on a deeper level are many times greater.
Thanks again for challenging me to think!
Ed,
The faith heros in the old covenant did not have the advantage that we have in the covenant. When Jesus died and rose again He changed everything. We are living with new and better promises according to the Word.
Images that we have seen from movies or other peoples thoughts have greatly distorted our image that we have of Jesus and what he has done for us.
Why do we ussume that when Jesus told the disciples to follow Him, they came by themselves. When Jesus made that promise in Matthew He mentioned eaving your family. Thats just like God asking Abraham to leave his family to go where Gosd wanted him to go. Abraham did not leave behind his wife and children, he left his extended family. God is not trying to seperate husband and wives or fathers forsaking thier children, that contridicts other scripture where he talks about family unity and husband and wives being as one.
The main thing that God wants us to forsake, give up and leave is the worlds way of lookiing at things. The worlds way of thinking, and just trust Him for all the stuff that we have and need for our lives.
Jesus took care of the disciples, there families, and multitudes of others. Remember he had more than just the twelve disciples to take care of, but He took care of all of there needs from the Kingdom resources. Jesus had plenty of money, He just did not depend on the world way to get it. Thans why Jesus had an on staff accountant and a treasury.
I really like your thought Tyrone about the key thing we are being asked to leave is “this world’s way of thinking’. We are called to be a peculiar people with significantly different motivators in our lives.
An additional thought regarding family is the thought in Proverbs about …”those who don’t care for their family being worse than an infidel.” In addition, loving our wives as Jesus loved the church doesn’t seem to warrant abandoning them for Jesus. It just doesn’t make sense to me that Jesus asks things that violates New Testament teaching. So his leave family line must have been a metaphor for something I’m not quite getting yet…maybe the level of sacrifice of our own interest we are called to…different way of thinking mentioned above … or about the extended family as Tyrone suggests above.
I like David’s line in proverbs 51…the Lord delights in a broken spirit and a contrite heart. Maybe that summarizes all of this in some way.
I really appreciate the stretching…thanks so much for all your efforts to engage your heart and minds…and engage mine.