Thanks for the warm encouragement.

I pray we can all continue to learn and discover together.

Ed

We all struggle with that question…right? It seems every Old Testament patriarch had to struggle through serious obstacles and pain.

In fact Hebrews 11 (the faith chapter) verse 13 tells us:

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

None of those great men of faith mentioned there saw their vision fulfilled. Their whole life was a struggle to overcome obstacles. Obstacles so big they never did fully overcome them.

The open/close door idea to discern God’s will doesn’t seem to fit with history from what I can see.

A wise approach to discerning God’s will seems to require three questions:

- Does it align with Biblical principles?
- Do other Godly people I know support it (wise council)?
- After meditation and prayer do I feel at peace about it?

If you have a “no” with any of the three don’t go!

Thanks for the insight. I appreciate the depth your able to take such a subject. But I must confess, I lack the mental space to dig so deep. I tried to digest the chapter you referenced…I did. But I have so many other competing thoughts I couldn’t get my arms around it enough to pull any clear opinions out of it.

I’ll have to simply trust your take on it. Thanks for joining the discussion. Your deeper and at times provocative insight is a valuable addition to the conversations here. Again, thanks for sharing.

I pray your well in Wisconsin!

Ed

That’s not what he [Chesterton] was talking about in this particular passage (though that could be what Ryan is referring to…I don’t know). The quotation Ryan mentioned was referring to Mr Wilde’s philosophy as one standing in the tradition of the “cult of the pessimistic pleasure-seeker”.

The thoughts preceding Ryan’s quote read as follows:

“Walter Pater said that we were all under sentence of death, and the only course was to enjoy exquisite moments simply for those moments’ sake. The same less was taught by the very powerful and very desolate philosophy of Oscar Wilde. It is the carpe diem religion…”

The entire chapter is discussing pessimistic pleasure seeking.
(see the full chapter here: http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/heretics/ch7.html)

You mentioned 1 Cor 13. That passage fits well here, I think. Love is a more excellent way because it never ends (verse 8). We might only know it in part (verse 10) or see it dimly (ver 12), but we will know it fully, as it has already known us. Faith and hope also have this character. All three of these gifts abide (ver 13), extending out into the future of God’s redemption.

Wilde’s quotation, I think, is far less theological in scope (though I can’t seem to find the original source for the quotation, which makes my discussion here far more speculative than I’d like). Upon my first reading, I thought that he was pointing out that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, that people who clamor are the ones who are heard. However, after a quick Google search, I found that a prominent company was using it as a slogan. Then I thought that perhaps Wilde’s quotation was taken to mean that it is those active individuals, those who aren’t content with sitting still, that will take their place as leaders. (these two interpretations aren’t mutually exclusive, I think).

If either of these interpretations is the correct one, I would suggest that the two quotations are on rather different levels. Chesterton is pointing to happiness (ie to beatitude) whereas Wilde is pointing to (at most) power.

They also don’t seem to contradict each other in an obvious way (at least not in one that I’m seeing). Wilde can say that Paul succeeded at what he was doing because he was a dynamic individual and Chesterton can point out that he was living for the eternal things. The biggest difference that would come out of such a discussion would be their far deeper differences on happiness. To get a some sense of this, read the aforementioned chapter of Heretics.

Thanks for the thoughts. I’m trying to track your quote but it’s confusing me. Was Chesterton saying that a “discontented spirit ” and a faith from such a passion may be in vogue, but it doesn’t lead to happiness? His last line about focusing on the future makes sense and I believe is the root of real joy.

As Paul shared in I Cor 13 first faith, then hope, and at last charity…it begins with a faith in something beyond this life and time. That must be our core grounding and hope of course. But a discontented spirit about the right things does drive action.

I sense Paul was quite discontented about the Jewish leaders impact on the culture at that time. And if Steven was content with things as they were would he have been stoned? He must have been quite discontent and that discontentment must have been quite obvious!

Maybe it’s a both/and thing. We need to be grounded on the “Rose that Dante saw” and discontent until everyone is grounded on it with us.

I know, of course, that all failure isn’t final. God is SO the God of second chances. But sometimes left behind in the devastating wake of failure are messes that have to be processed and cleaned up.

Binding up wounds. I’m learning so much!!!!

Right now the one about taking time to think is a necessity is slapping me over the head. So many things I’ve been dealing with could have so easily been avoided. And as I face my day I’m taking with me the warning that you haven’t always communicated when you think you have.

Oh so timely, my friend.

The trick will be finding the balance between the postive side of “discontent” and “being still, knowing He is God”

MT